Recording in one minute! Stand by!
We are going to talk about cuts and government extravagance, Bob?
Jim, we'll get to that if we've got time after the national database.
I don't think people are interested in the database. It's so trivial.
VT running! What's the matter? You're a bit too pink.
- What will the Daily Telegraph say?
We can do without questions about, "Are we creating a police state?"
Jim, you know I don't give out my questions in advance. Dead silence!
Ten seconds!
Five, four,
three, two...
Good evening. Is Big Brother watching you?
To be more precise - did you know that the Government
is building up a dossier on you?
It has the harmless-sounding name of National Integrated Database.
LAUGHTER
It means that any civil servant can inspect every detail of your life
your tax, your medical record,
periods of unemployment, children's school records - the lot.
And that civil servant may be your next-door neighbour!
Recently there's been mounting concern over this totalitarian weapon
that the computer revolution has put into the Government's hand.
And the man who wields the weapon
is the Minister for Administrative Affairs,
the Right Honourable James Hacker MP.
Minister, are you laying the foundations of a police state?
I'm glad you asked me that question.
Well, could we have the answer?
Yes, of course! I'm just about to give it to you, if I may.
Yes, as I said, I'm glad you asked me that question
because it's a question a lot of people are asking.
And why?
Because a lot of people want to know the answer to it.
Let's be quite clear about this without beating about the bush.
The plain fact of the matter is
that it's a very important question indeed!
And people have a right to know!
Minister, we haven't yet had the answer.
I'm sorry, what was the question?
Supposing I annoy you in this interview,
how do I know you won't go back to your office,
press a button and call up my tax records,
my hospital records, my police records?
No, you know that's not the way we do things in this country.
Then what's the database for if it's not to check up on people?
You know, that's a very interesting question as well!
It's for storing information so as to speed up government business
so that we need not take on an enormous influx of clerical staff.
Computers are big business and are good news.
But, Minister, if you put information into the machine
you'll eventually take information out of the machine.
Not necessarily.
So you're going to spend £25,000,000
accumulating information and never use it?
No. Well, yes! No! Well...
There will be safeguards. Such as?
Close in on him, 2. Bob's got him on the run. One minute 45, studio.
We'll be looking at a whole range of possibilities.
It's a complex and highly technical matter. Rome wasn't built in a day!
It's under review and these things take time.
Am I talking to the former editor of Reform or a Civil Service spokesman?
I've already introduced safeguards.
There's my new bureaucratic watchdog office, for instance.
It does look as if you need a pack of watchdogs before long,
but thank you very much.
Hold it there, studio, while we check the tape!
I thought first class, very good. Thought I waffled a bit.
No, you stonewalled superbly, Minister. Time for a drink?
My new bureaucratic watchdog office, for instance.
'It sounds as if we're going to need a pack of watchdogs before long
'but thank you very much.'
Well, how was I?
Splendid, Minister! Very dignified, very suitable!
Sir Humphrey, I congratulate you.
Jim is house-trained. He says and does what you tell him.
If you'll excuse me, Mr Weasel... Wiesel.
You say everything the Civil Service programmes you to say.
What are you? A man or a mouth? Very amusing, Frank!
It must be hard for a political advisor to understand,
but I am merely a civil servant,
I simply do as I'm instructed by my master.
What if the Minister's a woman?
That's rather interesting.
We sought an answer to that when I was principal private secretary
and Dr Edith Summerskill was appointed Minister in 1947.
I didn't like to refer to her as my mistress. What was the answer?
We're still waiting for it.
It's under review, is it? These things take time!
I must be going, Minister. Me too.
May I remind you we meet tomorrow morning, Paddington, eight o'clock.
Where are we going?
Swansea. Swansea?
You're addressing the conference of municipal treasurers.
But you're due in Newcastle tomorrow to address the by-election meeting.
So I am! You can't do both. I can't do both, Frank.
Jim, the by-election's important!
It's important.
The conference has been in your diary
for some weeks, they do expect you to go to Swansea.
Bernard, how come he's double-booked?
How come I'm double-booked? Nobody told me about Newcastle.
Why didn't you tell him, Frank? Why didn't you? I can't remember everything!
I'd better go to Swansea. Is that a decision? Yes, that's final!
The PM expects you go to Newcastle. The PM?
I'd better go to Newcastle, Bernard.
LAUGHTER
Is that a decision? Yes! I'm going home!
Is that a decision? No, seriously.
You've made the wrong decision. The visit to Swansea's been announced.
Lord! Just find a way of getting me from Swansea to Newcastle -
car, train, helicopter, anything!
Now I'm going home and that IS final!
Finally final? Absolutely finally!
If you do all your boxes tonight,
there's all the M and A committee papers and letters
to go before the weekend.
If you're a good boy your nanny will give you a sweetie! Good!
Hello, darling!
Thank you, George. Good night. Good night, sir.
Hello, darling. Hello!
Leaving me at last?
It's our anniversary tomorrow. Have you forgotten?
No, course I haven't forgotten!
We're going to Paris! Oh, my God!
You had forgotten. No! No, it's just I'm double...
I'm going to Swansea tomorrow.
Swansea? And Newcastle. I don't want to go on my anniversary.
No, not you, just me. Cancel them.
I can't!
What are you doing?
Cancel them. We booked this three months ago. I can't!
Then I'll go to Paris without you.
Hello, Bernard? Yes, it's me.
Look, I'll have to cancel tomorrow.
Yes, Swansea AND Newcastle. It's my wife's wedding anniversary tomorrow.
It's yours too!
Yeah, and mine too actually!
What do you mean, coincidence?
I'm going to Paris tomorrow and that's final.
Yes, I said before that it's final but this time it is final.
Well, you'll just have to cope as best you can!
Yes! Yes.
Definitely! Yes.
Is that clear? Right.
We're going to Paris.
No, I'm going to Swansea and Newcastle.
See me on TV? I saw somebody who looked like you.
What's that meant to mean? Nothing.
Frank Wiesel says I've just become a Civil Service mouthpiece. Yes.
You agree? Of course.
What? You could have hired an actor to say it. He'd have said it better.
Just sign your letters with a stamp and get an assistant principal
to sign them. They write them anyway!
Assistant principals don't write my letters! Undersecretaries do that.
I rest my case, m'lud.
Do you think I've become a puppet?
Yes, I do. You should get Miss Piggy
to do your job. At least she's prettier.
I don't know what to do about it! I'm swamped by the work.
I'm so depressed!
Look, as we're not going to Paris
let's go out for a quiet dinner tonight at the trat on the corner.
No, Bernard's told me I've got to get through three red boxes tonight.
Bernard's told you? When you edited Reform, you were quite different!
You told people what to do,
you demanded what you wanted and you got it!
How many articles did you blue-pencil and tear up? Dozens.
How many official papers have you torn up? I'm not allowed to!
Not allowed to?!
Darling, you're the Minister! You can do anything you like!
I've decided that bFrank was right, and Bob MacKenzie.
The national database has got to be reformed. Yes, Minister.
All possible built-in safeguards. Yes, Minister. Right away.
What do you mean, right away?
I mean right away. Oh, I see! You mean right away, Minister!
Got it in one, Humphrey.
Minister, perhaps I should remind you we're still in the early months of this government...
The database rules have got to be changed now! You can't, Minister.
Yes, I can. I'm the minister.
Yes, you are, Minister, and an excellent minister at that!
Humphrey, I want all citizens to have a right to see their own files
and I want to make unauthorised access to personal files illegal.
Very well, Minister, it shall be done. Good!
But the legislation necessary
to give the public the right to take legal action is complicated
and would take a considerable time to draft, promulgate and enact.
Legislation isn't necessary for a citizen to see his own files. No...
We'll start with that. We could manage that slightly quicker.
But there's an awful lot of administrative problems...
Humphrey, the database has been in preparation for years!
It hasn't materialised overnight.
There must have been discussions! Yes, indeed, Minister.
Well, what conclusions were reached?
Humphrey? What conclusions were reached?
I mean, what did my predecessor want to do about it?
Humphrey?
My lips are sealed.
I beg your pardon?
I am not at liberty to reveal previous plans. Why not?
Would you like everything you said in the privacy of this office
to be revealed to your opponents?
No. We cannot give your opponents political ammunition against you.
Tom was my predecessor. He wouldn't mind, this isn't party political.
It's a matter of principle. It wouldn't be...
I see, and we don't want to do anything that wouldn't be... No.
Oh, excuse me, Minister.
Yes, Bernard? A slight problem.
Due to the not entirely favourable press reaction to your interview
the other channel want you for their programme World In Focus. Say no.
No? Yes, no. Yes, no?
Yes, say no, that's fine.
If you don't appear, they will go
ahead with the item and nobody will be there to state your case.
No. OK, yes.
No, OK, yes? I see what you mean!
Yes! Finally final?
Thank you, Bernard.
What am I going to tell THEM about safeguards, Humphrey?
Well, perhaps you could remind them that Rome wasn't built in a day.
BIG BEN STRIKES THE HOUR
Tom!
My dear fellow! Mind if I join you?
No, of course not!
So, how are you enjoying being in opposition?
How are you enjoying being in government?
Not as much as I expected. Humphrey got you under control?
It's so hard to get things done. Did you get things done?
Almost nothing, old boy.
I didn't cotton on to his technique for a year, then we had the election.
Technique? Stalling technique.
Stalling technique? Yeah, it comes in five stages.
He'll tell you that your administration is very new.
He told me that this morning. Quite.
If you persist he'll say, "Ah, yes, Minister,
"I appreciate the intention, something ought to be done,
"but are you sure this is the right way to achieve it?"
I must make a note of this.
If you are still undeterred he will shift his ground.
He will shift from telling you how to do it, to when you should do it.
He'll say, "Now, Minister,
"this is not the right time for all sorts of reasons."
He expects ministers to settle for that? Lots do.
If you don't, he'll say the policy has run into difficulties. Such as?
Technical, political, legal.
Now, legal are the best sort because you can make those incomprehensible.
With any luck the stalling technique will have lasted for three years.
He'll say, "We're getting close to the run-up to the general election.
"Can you get this policy through?"
How has it taken three years?
Sir Humphrey will do nothing at every stage unless you chase him,
and you've got far too much to do.
You see, it's what they call creative inertia.
So what's the policy you're trying to get through?
I'm trying to make this national integrated database
a bit less of a Big Brother.
My God! I suppose he's told you it's quite new? Well, yes.
We spent years on that!
We had a white paper almost ready when they called election!
What about administrative problems? I solved them.
You can't see the previous papers? Yes. He's wiped the slate clean.
Do you know what his next move's gonna be? No.
How many red boxes have they given you home tonight? Three? Four? Five.
Did he tell you not to worry too much about the fifth one? Yes.
Right, I'll take a bet.
At the bottom of the box is a memo
which explains why any new moves on the database must be delayed.
If you don't find it he won't do another blind thing,
but in six months he'll say that he told you all about it.
You were in office for years. You know the Civil Service tricks.
Not all, old boy. Just a few hundred.
How do you make them do something they don't want to do?
My dear fellow,
if I knew that I wouldn't be in opposition!
But Tom's the opposition! Why did he tell you all this?
Darling, the opposition aren't the opposition. No, silly of me!
They're only the opposition in exile.
The civil service are the opposition in residence.
The fifth box, Tom said.
But even if you know the techniques you can't do anything. Can't I?
Tom's given me his own papers on the database, three years' worth.
Marvellous.
Ah-ha!
Found it.
It somehow slipped into an 80-page report on welfare procedures.
"Safeguards still under discussion.
"Programme not finalised. Nothing precipitate.
"Failing instructions to the contrary,
"propose await developments."
Typical! Ring Humphrey and say you disagree. I'll see him first thing.
Now. It's two o'clock in the morning. He'll be fast asleep. Exactly!
Annie!
Why should he sleep? He's had you on the run for weeks. It's your turn.
I couldn't do that!
What's his number?
Anyway, if it was in the fifth box you couldn't have got to it earlier.
True.
PHONE RINGS
Yes?
Humphrey, sorry to ring you so late.
I didn't interrupt you in the middle of dinner, did I?
No, we finished dinner some while ago. What's the time?
Ah, 2am!
Good God! What's the crisis?
No, I'm going through my boxes and I knew you'd be hard at it.
Yes, yes! Nose to the grindstone!
I just came across a database paper. Oh, you found it... You've read it!
I'm not happy with it. I knew you'd welcome the chance to work on it.
Hope you didn't mind my calling you.
No, not at all, Minister. Always a pleasure to hear from you.
Damn! I meant to tell him to see me before cabinet! Don't ring him now!
No, you're right, it is a bit late. Give him another ten minutes!
If you could be fairly quick, Sir Humphrey. He does have cabinet at 10.
I can be very quick! The word no is one of the shortest in the language.
Sorry to be so late! Lots of reading to do this morning!
Good morning, Bernard. Thank you, George.
Humphrey, the database! Have you drafted your proposed safeguards?
I quite appreciate your intention,
there is a need for safeguard,
but is this...the right way to achieve it?
Well, it's my way.
One.
That's my decision anyway.
This is not really the time, for all sorts of reasons.
Two. It's the perfect time!
Safeguards should be developed alongside systems,
not after them. That's common sense.
But we have tried all this and we ran into all sorts of difficulties.
Three. Such as?
Well, technical for instance.
No, we can use the same basic file interrogation programme
as the US State Department and the Swedish Ministry of the Interior.
Yes, but there are also formidable administrative problems.
Mm-hmm.
All departments are affected. An interdepartmental committee...
No, no. You'll find the existing security procedures are adequate.
This is simply an extension.
Anything more?
Yes, Minister. Legal problems, for example?
LAUGHTER
Yes. Good, good. There's a question whether we have the legal power.
We have. All personnel affected are bound by their staff agreements.
But, Minister, there will be a need for extra staffing.
Can you get it through the cabinet and the parliamentary party? Yes.
Anything further? No.
So, right. We can go ahead, then!
You're very silent, Humphrey.
Minister, you don't seem to realise the amount of work that's involved.
But haven't you examined safeguards before?
Perhaps under another government.
I read some written answers to parliamentary questions.
In the first place, as we've agreed, that question is not...
In the second place if there had been investigations,
which there haven't, or I am not at liberty to say whether there have,
there would have been a project team which, had it existed,
which would now have disbanded,
if it had existed, and the members returned to their departments -
if indeed there had been any such members
Or not, as the case may be. Yes, quite so, Minister.
I want safeguards on the database. Minister, it's not possible. It is!
It isn't. It is! It isn't.
It is. It isn't. It is, it is, it is!
You have Cabinet, you're addressing the Anglo-American Society at one
and you've got the World In Focus interview this evening.
Can I get out of lunch? It's been announced, it's in the programme.
What's that you just said, Bernard?
We can't get out of it, it's been announced, it's in the programme.
Thank you, Bernard. Thank you very much.
For what, Minister?
For everything, Bernard.
Our man on the spot is the Right Honourable Jim Hacker,
Minister for Administrative Affairs,
the man at the heart of the Big Brother computer controversy.
He's talking to Godfrey Fish.
Minister, as you know there's been an outcry this week
about the dossier the Civil Service bureaucracy has been building up
on every citizen in this country.
Now, it's rumoured that this is not your own policy
but you'd like to have safeguards for the individual citizen
but you're being frustrated at every stage by the Civil Service machine.
You know, Godfrey,
there's a lot of nonsense talked about the Civil Service.
It's a marvellous, efficient, professional organisation
capable of enormous energy and speed.
It's staffed by a lot of talented and dedicated people
who do everything in their power to help
the Government make its policies into law.
Thank you for the commercial, Minister.
We can start the programme now.
The fact of the matter is that the Civil Service and I
are in complete accord over this whole business.
I'm happy to announce
that we're ready to put our proposals into publication.
In fact, tonight I can say,
from September 1st every citizen of the UK
will have the absolute right to inspect his personal file
and check any information he or she has ever supplied to the Government.
Secondly, no civil servant
will be allowed to examine personal files from another department
without a written authority from a minister.
Citizens will be able to take legal actions against
any civil servant who gains unauthorised access to a file.
That's very encouraging, Minister.
Why did you not say so before and put people's minds at rest?
I didn't believe that the Civil Service could meet our deadlines,
but they've convinced me that they can
and in fact my permanent secretary has staked his reputation on it.
LAUGHTER
If not, heads will roll.
Anyway, assistant heads!
Well, thank you very much, Minister.
It can't be done! It's been announced on television.
Bernard, what did you make of our minister's performance?
I think it's checkmate.
Ah! See me on the box last night, Humphrey?
Of course, Minister.
How was I? Good?
A most remarkable performance, Minister, if I may say so.
You may! Thank you, Minister.
Well, Minister, we've been working very hard all night.
We have come up with some draft proposals
which would enable you to achieve your objectives by the stated dates.
Well done, Humphrey, you see, I told the nation
how splendid you were. I was right!
I had every confidence in you. Quite so, Minister.
Must have had quite a night. Yes, Minister, quite a night.
Let's see your proposals.
Here they are.
Here are mine.
What? You have specific proposals too?
Indeed I have. You read out what you've got on safeguards
and I'll read out what I've got and we'll see how they compare.
Personal data. 1A —
safeguards must be applied with reference to two...
BOTH READ: ..criteria, the need to know and the right to know.
1A: 1 - the need to know.
Only those officials for whom the information is submitted...
may be deemed prima facie to have a need to know.
We seem to be of the same mind!
Indeed, Minister.
Where did those proposals come from?
Minister? Can you hear me?
Where did those proposals come from?
Humphrey,
my lips are sealed.